I have a 92 Convertible. My tech is telling me I need a new ignition and that I have to get the new keys' chip coded. My current key doesn't have a chip in it. Do keys for the 92 have chips?

 Hmmmm...if your current ignition key does NOT have the "chip", or pellet, and the car will start, then you do not need to replace the ignition switch with one that takes the chipped key.
Why does he say the ignition cylinder needs to be replaced?




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My car was showing all the symtoms of a bad starter. Intermittent starts. When it wouldn't start it wouldn't crank at all. I replaced the starter and battery byt still have the same problem. A neighbor recommended I talk to a GM tech he knew.

Those pellets are resistors and you have to check it with a meter or have it matched thro the VIN. I hear contact issues are not uncommon (with the little wires running across the bead) and will present the problems as Adam described. Think I'd be getting some electrical contact cleaner in there and trying my spare key (cleaned as well). You can get new keys from the Corvette warehouses but you will have to know the right resistance (to add the dash identifier to the part number) for the right blank. Might be a whole lot cheaper than replacing the lock.

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Straight from the FSM in the  ECM Code 46 section:

"Diagnostic Aids:
  With the ignition "ON", the security light should be "ON" for 2 seconds then turn "OFF". If the security light stays on for more than 2 seconds with the ignition "ON", there is a PASS-Key problem".

So, does the security light stay on for more than 2 seconds when it won't crank? If so, your mechanic is on the right path. If it doesn't, (security light goes off after 2 seconds) he isn't. Ie, it's not the "key".

You can also query the CCM by jumping  ALDL A&G,  and using the DIC buttons to toggel the diagnostic functions that read out in the speedo / odometer.  (This is a very powerful diagnostic aid built into every 90-96 C4. Learn to use it.) Go to test 1.3,"Display CCM Inputs Status", ID #01 "PASS-Key Fuel".  "1" = Enabled. "0" = disabled.

Learn how to use the CCM diagnostics, and carry a jumper with you. Next time it won't crank, put in the jumper, and push the buttons. Shouldn't take more than 60 seconds to ascertain if it is the PASS-Key or not.

There is also a starter interrupt relay controlled by the CCM. I am not aware of it being a common C4 maladie, but this is reportedly a recurring problem in C5's.


I wonder if your "mechanic" knows about the CCM diagnostics? Or even the security light staying on?

Thanks to all who responded.

Hate to be a pain but.....There's an aftermarket alarm installed on the car. I inherited the car from my dad and don't know too much about it other than the paperwork he had. His records don't show anything about a new alarm being installed so I'm thinking it was done before he bought the car. From my research I know VATS had some issues. I'm wondering if it crapped out and, instead of purchasing a replacement, they just bypassed it and put the aftermarket alarm in. This could possibly explain why my key isn't chipped. If I purchade a replacement ignition will I have to completly install it to see if it work? Or does it need to be grounded by the steering column?

Let's start at the beginning:  Turn the key to IGN, and watch the SECURITY light. Does it come on for 2 seconds and go out,   does it come on and stay on, or does it not come on at all?

If the SECURITY light stays on, there is a problem with the PASS-Key system.

PASS-Key interrupts both the starter AND fuel delivery. Many aftermarket alarms that also have Remote Start utilize fairly simple bypasses to trick the CCM into thinking that a key is in the ignition, or it won't run from a Remote Start command. The CCM reads the key, and if correct, allows starter engagement by closing the Starter Interrupt relay, and allows fuel delivery by sending the ECM a signal for "Fuel Enable". This is the CCM test  I described above. It would be unusual to find a PASS-Key bypass on a NON-Remote Start alarm system. Unless it was put there specifically to bypass the factory key and tumblers.

If your key does not have a pellet, the Pass-Key system may be bypassed. Look in the vicinity of the wires coming out of the steering column. The pellet wires are very small, usually in a white cloth covering, and have their own 2 or 3 pin connector.  If they are disconnected, try to locate the car-side of the plug, and you should find a non-stock looking kluge of a resistor stuffed into the car-side connector.

If the ECM is not receiving the fuel enable signal, it will set a Code 46. This can be checked with a paperclip by shorting ALDL A&B, turn on the key, and watch the Service Engine Soon light.


If the Security light goes out after 2 seconds, and there is no Code 46 in the ECM, it is not the key, PASS-Key system, or anything related to the CCM causing your no-crank. It could  be the Starter Interrupt Relay I mentioned in my earlier post, or something to do with the aftermarket alarm, or starter, battery, or cables.

Again: What Is the SECURITY Light Doing upon Key-on?  You have 3 choices. Post up what it's doing, and we'll go from there.

While researching my answer for the posts above I learned some stuff about the PASS-Key system. The key resistance is learned by, and the value stored in the CCM. Once a certain resistance is learned by the CCM, it can never be changed. One certain resistance is "in there" for life of the CCM or vehicle.

 I was astonished to learn how crudely the proper key "resistance" is determined when a key to measure is not available, and where the CCM is not replaced, but has been previously programmed with keys. Ie, at the factory during vehicle assembly. In other words, a vehicle that's been in service but now has no keys.

There is a device called the "interrogator". This device is inserted into the key wiring connector at the base of the steering column. The operator puts the device on "01" and attempts to start the car. If no, there's a 4 minute timer that begins a countdown. (Remember. The system does not allow another start for 3 minutes). When the timer counts down, the red light turns off, and the operator turns the dial to "02" and attempts another start. Wait for timer, and repeat. If it happens the CCM is programmed with code #15, this process would take an hour. How efficient.

I suppose one could also get a DEI bypass resistor kit which contains one of each resistance, and try them one at a time, 4 minutes apart until it cranked and started.

But How freaking crude. That there is no way to query the CCM for the key resistance it's programmed for. Probably a security thing. No way for a thief to make the query, and supply the proper bypass resistance from his bag of tricks.

The system is fairly sophisticated.




|UPDATED|6/13/2014 8:52:11 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

The security goes out when you turn the key forward. But the car still won't crank.

The security goes out when you turn the key forward. But the car still won't crank.

Just checked the ccm svc eng flashes once then twice. Don't know if thats 12 or what. Diagnostice codes in Haynes start @ 13. Checked online forums. According to them the ccm will flash 12 3 times and then any other codes. No other codes showed up. What are the symptoms of a bad starter relay?

|UPDATED|6/14/2014 4:08:38 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

CCM is not the same as ECM. CCM codes are displayed in the speedometer / odometer. ECM codes are displayed by flashing the Service Engine Soon light.

CCM does not "flash" codes. So you must be querying ECM by shorting A & B. If you only see ECM Code 12, there are no codes stored in ECM, including 46 (not there). 46 is set by a PASS-Key problem, which because it is NOT being set, is an indicator that your condition is NOT PASS-Key related.

If you mean "turn key forward" to mean, turn from off to IGN, then the Security light is normal, indicating there is no problem with PASS-Key causing the no-crank.

If you mean "turn key forward" to mean from IGN position to START position, I don't know what the light does in START.

I don't think your problem is the "key" or PASS-Key system. If you have no "pellet" in the key, it's been bypassed. Move on. Your problem is NOT related to the key, pellet, or PASS-Key system.


The Starter Interrupt Relay is located above the LH lower inst panel. Remove the carpeted cover above the driver's feet. Remove the corrugated aluminum crush panel. (4) 10mm head bolts. The Starter Relay is to the left of the steering column, the one closest to the steering column of the 3. It has two large yellow, and one smaller blak/yel wire(s).

There may also be something with the aftermarket alarm causing your no-crank. Unfortunately, there is no way I can begin to tell you how to go about diagnosing that, as I have no idea how your car's wiring has been modified from the stock configuration.

Is your car Automatic, or Manual transmission?

If Automatic, I assume you've tried jiggling the shifter in Park, and tried Neutral position to see if it then cranks?

And if Manual, tried moving the clutch pedal (with shifter in Neutral) in and out while holding the key in START?

The Automatic P/N switch can come out of adjustment, and the Clutch pedal switches fail, usually at the bottom of the pedal travel, but work further 'up' in the travel.

Don't know if I'm looking in the right place. Attached is a pic. This is the left side of the steering column. it looks like they removed the relay and connected tjere own wires. The wires you're describing are connected to the center relay on my car.

PIC 1

PIC 2

(large images modified to links-aapple)


|UPDATED|6/19/2014 8:00:31 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

Well those yellow wires are the Starter Interrupt Relay, regardless of position. The Starter Interrupt Relay is on the front side of those wires, in that block. I do not know what the "made in Canada" relay is in your pic. The two relays at the bottom, hanging, are aftermarket.

Pull the tape off the yellow wires, it doesn't look OEM, and you may find splices where the aftermarket alarm was inserted into the factory circuit. If so, splice the factory wires back together, and try it. If crank = yes, yer done.

Get a test light, or VOM on DC scale, with one lead connected to good ground ( I like the lighter shell in a Corvette).

Put shifter in neutral or Park.
Hold key in START.
Check each of those big yellow wires for presence of 12 volts while key in START with VOM or test light.

12V on all three big yellows, = no problem with relay, CCM, PASS-Key, or IGN switch. Move on to Clutch or Neutral switch.
12 on only 2 = relay bad, or CCM is commanding a "no crank"
     Remove relay.  Jumper the two wires at the top of the block, and the one directly below it togeather.  If it now cranks, try another relay from an adjacent position without the jumper.. (they are generally the same).
If it now cranks you have a bad relay. Replace it, and yer done.
If it does not crank, the CCM is sending a "no crank" signal. For the tab on the relay that connects to the small blk/yel wire, bend the tab on the relay sideways, so it does NOT insert into the connector block. Put the relay back in, and try it. If it now cranks, yer done. Good enough.

If it still doesn't crank, your problem is with the clutch or neutral safety switch, or there are still more aftermarket connections.










|UPDATED|6/15/2014 3:45:05 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

Okay. We'll give it a shot. Thanks. Don't know if you're a dad or not but if so, HAPPY FATHER'S DAY!!

I purchased two aftermarket VATS key blanks from Ebay after I had a local locksmith read the resistance value on my old key.
Both keys worked fine for about a month and decided to fail last week on the Hot Rod Power Tour in Iowa. They would work intermittently and each time they failed you had to wait ten minutes to reset the system before retrying.

Long story short it cost me a new battery and starter before we realized the problem. I drove 450 miles home without shutting off the car. Once I was home I tried the original key and everything worked fine.  Be sure to get real GM keys.
 

the ignion keys turns the switch in the column which by a rod in the steering column turns/moves the actual igniton switch which is located right under dash on the steering column.this could be your intermittent starts,had similar problem with my 90.go on line and look up the part and the location.it also appears your father removed the vats system,so no need for chipped keys.have fun.

Thanks for the info.. However I've already have a new ignition switch installed.

Anybody have an idea of why this jumper wire is connected to the ignition like this. This part of the aftermarket alarm system.

Just tested yellow wires with a multi meter. With ignition in start position, I'm getting .02, -8 & -9. Using the test from the Haynes manual, the neutral safety switch is good.

I assume the yellow wires at the Starter Interrupt Relay we talked about above.

^^ I have no idea what the heck you mean by this. I can't figure out what you saw, what points the test meter leads were on, what you're measuring. Just gibberish to me.

^^ If you're measuring at the Starter Interrupt Relay, this point in the circuit is NOT testing the "Neutral Safety Switch".


Read this thread again. And then again. And maybe one more time after that. I've gone over everything you need to know. You haven't answered even ONE of my questions.  Like is the darn SECURITY light still on after 2 seconds after you turn the key to IGNITION. Not even "Manual or Automatic" transmission. I know its an automatic, because I saw the brake pedal.


I told you how to query the CCM and read the codes for VATS. What did you find? You can also see the CCM output for the starter interrupt relay. Is it enabled, or disabeled? It's in there.
You seemed to have CCM and ECM confused. You found a "blinked" Code 12. But the CCM doesn't "blink" codes. So I think you were querying the Engine Control Module, not the CCM which has the PASS-Key and starter interrupt in it.

In my post on the 13th, I told you what the wires for the key pellet looked like, and to look for signs they are bypassed. In the pic above, lo and behold, I see the "2 white cloth covered tiny wires" that have the resistor jumped between them. So yes, the key pellet HAS been bypassed.

I tried. If you can't understand what I'm trying to write, or if I'm not being clear, than I failed at trying to help. This isn't rocket science. The car has pretty much everything needed onboard for diagnostics. I've tried to get you to use these aids.

There's little doubt in my mind I could fix this car in 10 minutes. Electrical diagnosis is a process of elimination, and devising 'tests' that the results keep bracketing where to look. I'm really, really, really good at 12V electrical in general. And really good with C4 electrical.  But now after a week, and many, many HOURS researching and typing these posts, I'm giving up.  I tried. I'm frustrated by your inability to follow my lead, and answer the questions I ask.

Hopefully you can find someone that understands your 20 year old car's systems.  Especially when its been hacked with aftermarket installations like yours  has been.  That work under the dash is butchery. No wonder it's giving you problems.

Parting shot:  I told you to cut open the tape on the yellow wires from the relay. DID YOU?  There could be a bad butt splice in there, causing ALL your problems. Wouldn't be the first time aftermarket installation butchery caused grief.

Good Luck. I tried.
Dave