Home page
SPONSOR AD

Support our Vendors!  |  Advertise Here

Topic: 1985 has some rough idle

in Forum: C4 Engines


Already a Member?
Login
Not yet a Member?
Register for Free!

Back to top of thread

Re: 1985 has some rough idle (6/16)
 7/29/13 2:06pm
davep85c4
Former Member

Send Private Message

Joined: 4/4/2009
Posts: 254

Laurie:

I wouldn't put anything in the MAF sensor. I last bought one over 15 years ago. It was a one-year only (85) part, that cost about $525 IIRC, available from the dealer only. Don't risk damaging an expensive MAF with a $5.00 bottle of "feel good".

The 400-450 RPM figures Joel mentions are the base idle RPM that is set with the throttle body screw, with the IAC fully closed. The programmed idle (with functional IAC) is in the low-mid 600's (I'm not going to look it up right now). If your's is in the 500's, something is wrong with IAC response. It should be in the 600's for an automatic. Look at the emissions sticker on the radiator shroud for the program idle speed.

If it runs fine and doesn't stall, drive it. My 85 has never had a smooth idle since new. The only GM EFI engines I've owned that did idle smoothly were ones I tuned myself with available software. GM idle programs run lean, with retarded timing for emissions and economy, and don't idle very smoothly. Its probably running just the way it did when new.

DaveP


|UPDATED|7/29/2013 11:06:11 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|
Re: 1985 has some rough idle (7/16)
 7/29/13 10:38pm
laurieb
Standard Member
Send Private Message

Sacramento, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1995 Coupe, Automatic, Dark Red Metallic, 1G1YY22P6S5100376 1985 Coupe, Automatic, Gold Metallic, 1G1YY0783F5114974


Joined: 4/11/2013
Posts: 109

Several mentions of IAC, I noticed.  I read through the FSM on IAC, and will see about testing it.  Dave, I saw the timing specs on the radiator shroud, but not specs regarding the program idle speed.  I may be looking in the wrong place.  But, you and others noted that the idle I'm seeing is unusually low.  Now, I do get idle speeds in the low to mid 600s when the engine is cooler, especially when the whether is cooler.  But, when the engine gets good and warmed up, I can expect it to drop to the lower, and incorrect, idle speeds.  While I feel much better about the rough-ish idle after reading, I would like to get the idle consistently up to where it should be.  We've discussed looking into the "health" of the idle air controller to see if it needs to be replaced, or perhaps cleaned.

I got to thinking about an incident that happened shortly after bringing the car home.  This has only happened one time, and never anything like it again.  It was a pretty hot day, and we stopped somewhere for about 20 minutes.  When we started the car back up, it was a "weak" and "stumbly" sort of start, and the car didn't want to idle.  In fact, it stalled at a light.  We thought maybe it was a problem with the fuel, so we stopped at a station and filled it up with a high quality fuel.  We also used an injector cleaner.  Things were much better after that.  It never did this again.  We felt it may have been an anomaly due to a fuel issue.  The car hadn't been used much prior to us purchasing it.   I don't know if that incident is in any way related to the low idle issue when hot.  As for running temps, the car doesn't run too hot at all.  On the highway, it runs around 170-190, depending on the outside temps.  If it sits at a light or in very slow traffic for a while, it will eventually get up around 230, but then the fan comes on and it immediately starts to cool. 


______________
~Laurie~

1985 and 1995 coupes:
1985 and 1995 coupes
Re: 1985 has some rough idle (8/16)
 7/30/13 11:13am
davep85c4
Former Member

Send Private Message

Joined: 4/4/2009
Posts: 254

I give up. I just spent 15 minutes looking for an idle speed spec in my 85 FSM, and never found it. I thought it was on the under hood sticker, but it probably says something like "idle speed is ECM controlled, and is not adjustable" and doesn't give the spec.

My 85 has had a few episodes of "rough start, stalling, etc" over the years. Most recent was in 2008 when it sat all day with the battery disconnect open during its last NCRS judging at Chapter for my Founder's Award. When we went to leave, it wouldn't start at all. It farted, and tried, but wouldn't start. I disconnected the battery again, waited a minute, turned it back on and then if fired right up. I don't know what it is, but it's only done it a few times in 28 years, so I ignore it. I also now never let the battery die, and use a "memory saver" when changing the battery, or doing electrical service work with the battery disconnect open. The ECM has never been de-powered since the 2008 incident.

There was a Service Bulletin for an updated PROM change that addressed idle quality issues on the 85 Automatics. I don't have any further particulars, as my car is a manual trans and I've never needed to learn about it. I know of this from several other knowledgeable 85 OO's in NCRS, and awhile back I stumbeled into a GM site online that had a database of recalls and TSB's and I found it there. (I somehow lost that link, and have never found that site again :sad:)

There is a switch on the shifter that tells the ECM when its in Park or Neutral. This switch changes the way the IAC behaves when its in gear. If interested, I will look up and tell you the pin-out of the ECM for this wire and it can be checked with a VOM. I know the wire color is orn/blk.

Once again, I think I'd just drive it.






Re: 1985 has some rough idle (9/16)
 7/30/13 3:56pm
laurieb
Standard Member
Send Private Message

Sacramento, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1995 Coupe, Automatic, Dark Red Metallic, 1G1YY22P6S5100376 1985 Coupe, Automatic, Gold Metallic, 1G1YY0783F5114974


Joined: 4/11/2013
Posts: 109

Thank you, Dave.  I guess that some of this stuff is simply common quirks for the car.  Overall, the car is a great runner, and I haven't had to do much to it for all the enjoyment I've been getting.  I will try not to worry so much about the small stuff.  

Regarding the link you mentioned, a few weeks ago, I came across this which notes a number of service bulletins specific to 85 Corvettes:  http://www.corvettephotographs.com/c4vettes/85sb.htm  Is this similar to what you had seen?  I noticed one that discussed idle air control for auto trannies.  It notes setting minimum air rate to 500.  That is where I set mine when I wanted to make sure that my minimum rate and my tps voltage were set properly.  Below is the copy of the bulletin summary.

Service Bulletin Number: 85-91 
Bulletin Sequence Number: 106
Date of Bulletin: 8505
NHTSA Item Number: 79273 
Make: CHEVROLET
Model: CORVETTE
Year: 1985
Component: FUEL:FUEL INJECTION:IDLE SPEED CONTROL UNIT
Summary: MINIMUM IDLE SPEED REVISION- 1985 CORVETTES WITH L98 5.7L ENGINE AND AUTO/TRANS. NOT ABLE TO MAINTAIN MINIMUM IDLE SPEED. REPAIRED BY RESETTING MINIMUM AIR RATE TO 500 RPM. 1985 CORVETTE WITH A/T.





|UPDATED|7/30/2013 12:56:01 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


______________
~Laurie~

1985 and 1995 coupes:
1985 and 1995 coupes
Re: 1985 has some rough idle (10/16)
 7/31/13 4:21pm
tbirdsps
Standard Member
Send Private Message

Ridgecrest, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1990 Coupe


Joined: 2/19/2013
Posts: 117

My 90 L98 idles very smooth.  Not sure why all L98s can't.

______________
If it isn't broke, I haven't fixed it yet....
Re: 1985 has some rough idle (11/16)
 7/31/13 8:54pm
CMIUC
Standard Member
Send Private Message

Joined: 7/8/2013
Posts: 2

Reading this topic has everyone jumping around, so I'm attaching some historic technical information for the typical C4 owner. Individuals need to understand when dealing with C4 engine issues, there are 2 operations "Open Loop" and Closed Loop"

C4 Engine Information!

 All EFI systems rely on sensors to report engine conditions to the ECM so it can make intelligent decisions based on the engine’s performance. Each of these sensors reports on a particular engine condition. It is then up to the ECM to gather all this data and condense it to deliver the proper fuel and spark to the engine. The cool thing about this is that current automotive computers can make these decisions thousands of times per second! Try that with your hand calculator.
For example, let’s take a look at a typical late-model TPI- or LT1-style fuel injection system. We’ll deal with only the sensors that have direct input for fuel injection, omitting the emissions-oriented sensors for now. To start with, all EFI systems need an ignition trigger. This is fairly simple since it’s virtually the same as the hookup for a normal analog tachometer.

TPS: The throttle position sensor (TPS) hooks directly to the throttle blades to tell the ECM via a voltage signal not only how far the throttle is open or closed but also the rate at which the throttle opening is changing.

MAP: The manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor reads the intake manifold pressure (or vacuum), converting this pressure reading into a voltage signal that the ECM can use. In speed-density systems, this is a critical sensor. If the MAP sensor fails, the system usually reverts to a limp-home mode.

MAF: Certain TPI, LT1, and LS1 Chevy production engines use a mass airflow (MAF) sensor to measure the amount of air the engine is using. This sensor is located upstream of the throttle body and uses what is called a hot-wire sensor. A very small wire strung across the airstream is electrically heated to a certain temperature. As air passes over the wire, it cools. The amount of current required to maintain the wire’s temperature then represents the amount of mass airflow.

O2: Oxygen sensors (O2) are often employed in EFI systems to report the amount of free oxygen in the exhaust. This is a convenient way to measure rich or lean air/fuel ratio conditions in an engine at part-throttle. EFI systems employing an O2 sensor are generally referred to as operating in closed loop. If the engine does not use the sensor, the system is said to be operating in open loop. Closed loop refers to the fact that the O2 sensor readings allow the computer to measure the result of combustion. Low oxygen readings indicate a rich condition, and higher oxygen content in the exhaust is a result of lean air/fuel conditions. Even MAF-equipped engines operate in closed loop, since the O2 sensor’s feedback allows for very tight control over part-throttle air/fuel ratios.

Unfortunately, these factory-type O2 sensors only operate accurately within a very narrow range of the air/fuel ratio scale. They are most accurate when reading ratios hovering around 14.7:1, which is the “ideal” ratio for emissions where hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) are at their combined lowest levels.

Coolant: This is a fairly simple but important sensor. For the engine to run properly at low temperatures, it’s critical that the ECM be aware of the coolant temperature. Low-temperature input, for example, will trigger fuel enrichment outputs from the ECM to act like a choke for cold-start and warmup situations.

MAT: Inlet air temperature affects the air/fuel ratio, so a manifold air temperature (MAT) sensor is needed to help the computer compensate for changes in air density based on temperature. All EFI systems offer compensation tables for inlet air-temperature changes.

Knock Sensor: All late-model GM engines are also equipped with a knock sensor that identifies engine knock or ping. When the knock sensor informs the ECM that it senses knock, the ECM can retard timing to prevent engine damage. Several aftermarket EFI systems also employ a similar knock sensor system.

Cam Position Sensor: Sequential fuel injection systems require a sensor to tell the ECM where cylinder No. 1 is in relation to top dead center in order to trigger the fuel injectors to deliver fuel at the proper time. This sensor is usually some type of magnetic pickup located either on the camshaft drive or on the damper (similar to a racing-style crank-trigger sensor

 People need to understand there are two different engine management functions:

The engine starts out as Open Loop, and then if all conditions are met, it will switch to Closed Loop!

 OPEN Loop is when it is fueled direct from the fixed tables in the tune

 Closed Loop is when the ECM has control of the fueling and adjusts it to engine requirements

That usually happens once the engine is up to operating temperature(more than 160 degrees) and it is getting a signal from the O2 sensor. The closing of the loop causes the ECM to go into Enrich/Enlean mode that constantly changes the fuel injector pulses to lengthen or shorten to satisfy the O2 sensor.

 

When you have engine related issues, you need to identify if your running Open Loop or Closed Loop before trying to diagnose any engine related problems!

 The next question is, are there any stored error codes???

Open Loop Operation Basics:

o        Before anything else, check to make sure that you don't have any vacuum leaks and that your throttle position sensor and idle air control sensor are working and properly adjusted. Check your ignition timing to ensure that it's within factory spec and to ensure that you have a constant spark. These failures can easily cause a rough idle and loss of performance, and they're common enough to warrant checking before anything else.

Fuel Problems

o        A clogged fuel filter won't necessarily cause a serious drop in pressure, but it will cause a reduction in fuel volume. Ultimately, it is this reduction in volume that causes the engine to drop power, and the rapid fluctuations in pressure that can result from a clogged filter will cause a loss of idle quality. Of course, you may also have the opposite problem; your engine could be getting too much fuel if one or more of the injectors are hanging open and constantly leaking fuel into the engine. This latter will result in a constant or intermittent miss and a raw fuel odor in the exhaust.

    •  

Limp Home Mode

o        Fuel injection systems typically operated in what is called "closed loop" mode, meaning that the engine's sensors form a loop of information regarding air going into the engine and the quality of air and fuel coming out. If any of the engine's sensors fail, the computer will go into "open loop" mode, a very conservative state of tune wherein the computer resorts to its best guess on how the engine should run. The result is a noticeable loss of power and possibly idle quality.

EGR Stuck Open

o        Your Corvette uses an exhaust gas recirculation system to feed used exhaust gases into the intake to reduce combustion chamber temperatures and thus nitrogen oxide emissions. The EGR valve regulates how much exhaust gas goes back into the engine, and carbon buildup in the unit can gum it up and stick it open over time. This will ultimately result in a loss of performance, bad fuel economy and a rough idle.

Spark Failure

o        A malfunctioning electrical system or intermittent spark will also cause the above-described symptoms. A loose or frayed ground strap, burned or split plug wires, bad ignition coil or failing alternator can result in reduced ignition power. "Spark scatter" happens when ignition timing randomly jumps up or down a number of degrees, and it's usually the result of a worn and stretched timing chain. A small-block Chevy's distributor gets its motivation directly from the oil pump, so spark scatter can also be the result of a worn-out oil pump or distributor drive gear.

So, you may want to ensure the engine is running OK, and with-in spec before the engine switches to closed loop!

ChiTownAL







______________
Re: 1985 has some rough idle (12/16)
 8/1/13 2:23am
davep85c4
Former Member

Send Private Message

Joined: 4/4/2009
Posts: 254

tbirdsps said: My 90 L98 idles very smooth.  Not sure why all L98s can't.

Not all  L98's are equal. The following differences between a 90 and an 85 will all affect emissions / tuning, and therefore idle quality.

1985 utilizes a one year only, slow baud rate ECM. While certainly adequate, it's processor speed is substantially slower than the "165" ECM used in the 86-up. ( I can't recall the actual baud rates, so I won't guess at the differences. But it's like 4X faster for the 165).  The P/N changes for 90 because of the under hood location of the ECM, but the internals and programing are the same as the 165 ECM.  Faster up-date and processing rates are more stable. This is a major difference between 85's and all other L98's.

 Aluminum vs Iron heads. And chamber design. Timing can be more advanced for Aluminum heads, because chamber temperatures are lower than iron heads at idle. The heat is carried away faster. Advanced timing improves idle quality  and off-idle response.

90 has pre-cats that light-off a 3-way catylist. 85 has a two-way catylist, and no pre-cats.  System can enter closed loop sooner after cold start, and idle richer in general as main cat will stay effective at idle because of the pre-cats. Closed loop is more stable (usually) and richer idle is smoother.

And another big one in favor of the 90: The 90 and 91 L98 are speed-density systems. 90-91 have a MAP sensor that measures intake manifold vacuum. The 85-89 have a Mass Airflow Sensor. The MAF system is not as stable at idle as the MAP system. This too is a big difference. The early MAF systems (on all GM's that have MAF) don't idle very smoothly.

There's some reasons why "all L98's can't idle smoothly".  Even though the engine RPO is common to both 85 and 90, there are some significant differences in the hardware.












|UPDATED|7/31/2013 11:23:42 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|
Re: 1985 has some rough idle (13/16)
 8/1/13 3:03pm
epohdivad
Standard Member
Send Private Message

Kearns, UT - USA

Vette(s):
1990, L98, 6 Speed Manual, Brilliant red metallic


Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 86

Wow Laurie - I feel like we're in the coolest school ever!  This page is going to be one I'll refer to for future reference.  Thank you all of your very useful info!  I'm even happier that I too have a '90!  My idle isn't particularly smooth as glass, but compared to my 2006 Impala SS‘s newer V8 it’s very similar feel.



______________

Re: 1985 has some rough idle (14/16)
 8/1/13 4:07pm
tbirdsps
Standard Member
Send Private Message

Ridgecrest, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1990 Coupe


Joined: 2/19/2013
Posts: 117

Wow Dave!  I knew about the MAF vs MAP but I didn't know the rest, thanks I've been educated.  If I have a problem the car is coming to you!!! :)

|UPDATED|8/1/2013 1:07:33 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


______________
If it isn't broke, I haven't fixed it yet....
Re: 1985 has some rough idle (15/16)
 8/1/13 6:52pm
laurieb
Standard Member
Send Private Message

Sacramento, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1995 Coupe, Automatic, Dark Red Metallic, 1G1YY22P6S5100376 1985 Coupe, Automatic, Gold Metallic, 1G1YY0783F5114974


Joined: 4/11/2013
Posts: 109

Lots of great information here!  There are so many changes between 85-91.  Dave, thank you for pointing out these differences.  With no codes and no other operating issues going on, it would seem that the issue is simply that there is just an inherently less-than-smooth idle to the earlier L98 engines.  Even so, the more I drive it, the more I become attached to it.  

______________
~Laurie~

1985 and 1995 coupes:
1985 and 1995 coupes
Re: 1985 has some rough idle (16/16)
 8/13/13 11:38pm
TVaitonis
Standard Member
Send Private Message

Rochester, NY - USA

Vette(s):
1987 Coupe Red and red, Z52


Joined: 8/20/2011
Posts: 60

I have just the coolant temp sensor and maybe the ignition coil to replace in my search for the Holy Grail of a smooth idle. Everything else is set right to the manual so it is what it is. I won't be too disappointed if it's not perfect since it's the nature of this animal. Spanking the throttle gets an instant result so no complaints.

______________
Our Sponsors help support C4VR