if the ncrs judges know that certain parts for some of the c4 vettes are no longer produce or can't be found anywhere. say like the ac delco freedom batt. for intance. why do they take points away. why can't they accept something that is a replacement. and still being used. and not take valueable points away. they know you just can't buy a 30 year old batt and tires. i don't see any proplem not takeing points away as long as it stays as close to the oringinal part. like tire size for intance. an delco battery that is close to the orig..one. who to say that the aftermarket may or may not reproduce parts that are impossile to find for some of the c4s.if theres not a demand for them.

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The whole idea for NCRS is to present the cars as they were delivered from the factory. The ONLY item that will not get a deduction for replacement is the brake hoses....provided the replacement hoses are GM.
As far as the battery, if you cannot find the correct battery to use for Judging, then the suggestion is to stay with a GM replacement Delco. It will still get a deduction, but since it is a Delco product, the deduction will be far less than it would be if you just put something like an Interstate battery in it.
NCRS is not going to change the judging guidelines just because this or that part is not reproduced, or available from GM. The Judging standard is, and has always been to present the vehicle in as factory delivered condition, regardless of any dealer, or owner inspired additions or deletions. That's it...
The Judging Standards are published for all to see before attempting any judging on the car. If you don't want to spend goo-gobs of $$$ getting the car back to factory condition, but want it judged anyway, then you should be prepared to be disappointed.
My '74 did NOT make Top Flight the first time out, but with a little cleaning, and detailing, it garnered Top Flight awards many times after that. I was willing to do what I could to help gain points where it was feasible....such as detailing the chassis, and engine compartment. The first time judged, I lost a ton of points on condition, simply because the car was not clean/detailed. After careful detailing, I gained all of those points back, and then some. At the 2001 National Meet, the chassis Judges commented on how clean the frame and underside of the car was. "It's obvious you did a frame-off on it, since last time we saw it". Nope....just spent a few months crawling around underneath it, getting it to look factory original, as far as finishes, and markings. And...the car earned a Top Flight at a National Meet.

Anyway...folks can(and do) complain about the Judging Standards, but they are not going to change. If you absolutely cannot find a correct replacement part, then the best bet is to find one that is as close as possible in both appearance, and functionality. You're gunna lose points anyway....the trick is to mitigate the damages.

A good friend told me once, "If you want an NCRS car...buy one".


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Joel Adams  
My Link

    
(click for Texas-sized view!)             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"

you make a hole lot of since about this subject.  i will take your advise and clean and detail my car  back the way it came from the factory.  its so close now.the only thing thats not orig....is the battery and tires.   just can't find them anywhere. i heard that if you have an top flight status on your car , it would be more desireable in the colector world.  is this true?

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An NCRS Top Flight award is good to have, but it really should not be used to determine the value of a vehicle. It is basically the opinions of the Judging teams that day, and on that day, they determined the vehicle was judged to be as close to factory original as they could see. Of course, having the award does tend to make the car a little more desirable for those looking for original cars.
If all your car has had replaced is the tires, and battery, then those two items in themselves would not keep you from attaining a Top Flight status. The recommended thing to do is use the same brand, and size tires as original, and the same brand/specification type battery. At least with the correct brand, and style parts, you will not normally loose all of the available points for those items. If you replace the Goodyear tires with Goodrich, you'll loose all of the originality points, which will also automatically loose all of the condition points. Same with the battery. If you stay with a Delco product, properly sized, and configured, you won't loose all of the originality points. The point is to determine how it appears to be different from original....if the part in question only has minor cosmetic differences, then the deduction would be small. If it is a totally different brand, and is off on shape/color/function, the deduct will be much higher.
As a for instance:
If the battery is replaced with a correctly configured/sized Delco battery, then the deduction would be less than 50% for that part. In order for a part to be judged for condition, it needs to be judged at least 50% correct on originality. So...a correct new Delco replacement battery would score 100% on condition, since it was judged at least 50% original.

If you install an Interstate(or any other brand) battery, it would loose ALL originality points, and ALL condition points, since it did not get at least 50% on originality.

I would suggest that if you are intending on having your car judged in NCRS/Bloomington, please get the Judging Guides/Tech Information Manual. This is what the judges use to determine what is "correct" for each year car. It is also what you should use to see for yourself, so you won't be disappointed on Judging day. If you have something on your car that you know without a doubt it correct, and factory original to the car, but it different from the the JG says, you can certainly talk to the Team leader, and present any documentation, or evidence concerning it. The way the Guides get better, and more accurate over time is by judging as many original cars as possible, and noting any deviations from what was known before to be "correct". There have been several changes in the '73-'74 JG that I know of just from my car being judged several times, and me presenting convincing evidence that the JG did not contain. It's not a battle to get more points...it's a concerted effort to be the best we can be on the judging field.

hth


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Joel Adams  
My Link

    
(click for Texas-sized view!)             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"

I just top-flighted my 88 with a very high score....without the delco freedom battery or original tires...I posed the same questions as you in an earlier post in this forum. you can only do what you can do so to speak....I don't know of anyone that has a funtional TRUE Delco Freedom battery and no one makes an acceptable reproduction yet...same goes for the original tires....I myself wouldn't run 20+yr old rubber for fear of dry-rot...and funny thing with dry-rot is ..it is not always visible. if you want to PM me I'd be happy to give you some details as to what to expect for judging.

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....Jeff

I'm basically staying out of NCRS discussions, but this is not correct, Adam. I know you're familiar and experienced with NCRS Judging, so I don't think you'll mind being corrected in the interest of accuracy.

In order to receive Condition points, any item must receive at least a 10% originality score. This is true for any item judged. "For current-quality GM service-replacement parts the originality deduction is a maximum of 90%". (Right from the Judging Reference Manual). so any current GM replacement will receive condition points.

Batteries, (as well as tires, headlight bulbs, window glass) have Standard Deductions. Also outlined in the JRM. For a C4 Battery (all years), a current service replacement Delco will receive a 50% originality deduction, which is 10 points, as all-year C4 batteries are 20 points for originality. If you forget to remove the handle on a Delco replacement, the deduction will be 12 points. So remove the handle.


I don't understand the obsession with the 10 point deduction for the battery. To date, almost 100 C4's have received a McClellan or Hill Award which require a minimum score of 97.0 at Nationals. (That's 145 points MAX deduction, with the 10-point Bonus in Ops). With the exception of 3 of those cars, all received the 10 point Standard Deduction for the Delco Replacement battery. The battery was a non-issue for these 95+ cars. If 10 points is keeping you from the Award you're seeking, work on some other areas of the car. Because there are obviously other areas that need improvement.

I judged 10 C4's at Nationals in San Diego 3 weeks ago. Most of these cars were in the 30-70 points total deduction range. Nice cars, as one would expect at Nationals. With the exception of one car, all made the 97.0+ threshold, and received the 10-point battery deduction. The one car that didn't "make it" was an extremely original 84 that had Dealer-applied custom paint. The Original Owner is to be commended for "going for it anyway" because he knew he faced a huge hurdle to a McClellan because the custom paint was 85 points right off the bat. And he still almost made the 145. This 84 was presented with its factory-installed battery and the unique "upside-down lettered" 84-only Gatorbacks. IIRC, he had NO originality deducts. It was all condition, and the paint. He did Top-Flight at Nats with a 85-point paint deduct. Not shabby at all.

The battery is 10 points. Live with it.  Almost 100 other McClellan Award C4's in NCRS have successfully done so. Including mine.

|UPDATED|7/22/2012 10:38:16 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

Standard Deduction for Tires:

Deduct 60%-- Current-day OEM Brand, service-replacement size, bias or radial ply tires or current equivalent sizing designation and correct whitewall width.

Deduct 75% -- As above, non OEM Brand.

Deduct 100% -- Originality and Condition, all others or those with whitewalls mounted inboard.


The 4 Road Tires in C4 carry 24-points originality. So your hypothetical Goodrich 255's would receive an 18-point deduction. Like the battery, not insurmountable for a McClellan / Hill attempt.

 Unfortunately, there are no 255/50VR 16's in current production by any manufacturer. So if you have to use a different size, then yes, full deduction condition and originality. 24/24 = 48 points. Ouch.

|UPDATED|7/22/2012 5:59:26 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

Thanks for keeping me honest, Dave!  I haven't actually been to an NCRS meet in several years...I should go!

I do NOT have any of the C4 Judging Manuals...I am most familiar with the Shark era cars. Don't know for sure where the 50% number came from...perhaps I was thinking Bowtie....
At any rate, I agree that the battery and/or tires by themselves would not keep anyone from attaining Top Flight or better. It's why I suggested taking care of all of the other details to help off-set the deducts for those items. Plus, we have the added points for the NCRS decal, fire extinguisher, and....something else...my mind just left the building...





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Joel Adams  
My Link

    
(click for Texas-sized view!)             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"

thanks, all this information you guy's have posted will be most helpful to me . 

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.....Battery cutoff switch. (3rd item required for the Bonus 10 in Ops).

The 50% "originality" thing may have come from Bloomington Survivor. They require 50% original to "pass". NCRS in Bowtie, Star, for the 53-82 cars requires 85% in Interior and Exterior, and 80% for Mechanical and Chassis. For the C4's the bar is much higher: Must be a McClellan Car. (97.0+ at Nats and a Performance Verification pass). Must score 90% originality in all 4 areas. (There are no 1 Star, 2 Star, 3 Star in C4's). Fail in one area, the car fails Crossed Flags.

Bloomington Gold doesn't even come close to the Scrutiny and Standard NCRS requires. When people say "my C4 is a Bloomington Gold Survivor" I don't say anything. But I think to myself: "Nice, but my car is a NCRS Crossed Flags Car". Royal Flush trumps a pair any day. And is much harder to achieve.

Dave:  Falken makes a 255/50 R16 that is rated for 150 mph.

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Looks like BFG is making a G-Sport2 again, too.

A few months back, the only 255/50-16's were drag radials and DOT track tires. I'll have to learn more about the G-Sport2. I've had 3 sets of G-sports on my Syclones and Typhoons and have been satisfied with all aspects of them. Glad to know they're available again. Maybe. We'll see.


|UPDATED|8/1/2012 5:57:09 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

falkin is about the only brand that does make the correct sizez for the 84, especially for the z51.

There is only ONE "correct" (factory-equipped)  tire size for any 1984 to 1987, or 1988 Corvette equipped with 16" wheels. And that is 255/50-16. Period. ONE size tire only for the first 4 years, and the base wheels for 88.

Regardless of Z51, or any other options. 255/50-16. The wheel widths are different, yes. The tires sizes, no.

Anyone know where to get a good look or photo of the elusive Delco Battery for C4's of the 80's? The originals did not last 2-3 years because of leaking and other issues. A very few have found dead originals and put the guts of a lesser battery inside to get around the issue and passed because it looked right. I doubt any Corvettes left the factory that way . NCRS needs to eliminate this needless anal demand for a correct battery. A correct functioning Battery does not exist.

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